The role of women within the work, the movement and lifeSubscribe |
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Tue, 04/22/2008 - 10:51
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Ahona
Join Date: 2003-08-23 Forum Posts: 332 |
This is something that I have been thinking about lately and something that keeps coming up within discussions with other people, so I thought I would ask and see how other people on these forums, men and women feel about this. Please be honest, there are no right and wrong views and even if I do not agree with what you say, I will defend to death your right to say it ;) This post will be rather long-winded, apologies for that at the start. I will start by saying that one of the things that attracted me to the movement to start with, was the equality that appeared to exist between men and women, there were so many wonderful female teachers, who inspired me and still do, so many strong women who were doing the best possible for themselves and other people. As an Indian woman who had lived her life in a patriarchal society where religion was geared towards women taking a passive role, geared towards the ideas that women were 'dirty', couldn't be priests etc, this was refreshing and melded beautifully with how I was brought up, to view myself as equal and complementary to men. I will say that on the whole, I have been treated with nothing but utmost respect, kindness and friendliness from all the men within the movement I interact with on a daily/weekly basis and for this, I am thankful. I have however, heard a lot of comments, first hand and second hand about how the role of a woman is passive, about how she is supposed to stay in the house and support her husband while he does the great work in the battlefield, about how women's energies are more suited to being quieter and less active, about how she is the backbone of the house and the relationship and if things go wrong, it is her duty to fix it, how it is her responsibility to ensure alchemy is practiced etc. These comments do honestly disturb me, because I cannot see the truth in them. As a woman, I am not passive, I like doing things, learning, exploring life, interacting with other people. Being told to stay home and support my husband while he does what he needs to do, would not satisfy me. Support within a relationship is very important to me yes, but only if it goes both ways. I support my husband in what he wants/needs to do and get the same in return. Equally, I do not consider myself to be the backbone of the relationship and the house, it only seems right and fitting, that both of us share that role, that if things are going wrong, we see it, and fix it together. That is how we approach life as a couple, and it works well for us. Personally, I do not feel submissive or passive and none of the women I know, are that way. They are all strong confident women, who seek to have a fulfilling relationship with their partners and a life outside the relationship, a life based on learning and coming to terms with the self. Where then, do these ideas come from? This where I throw it open to you :) As men, do you feel that the comments I have heard about a woman's role are accurate? Is that how you lead your relationship? Are your partners happy with that role? (And there is nothing wrong with that!) If you do believe that these comments are accurate, where does that belief come from? Observation? Speaking to your partner and other women? Books? Being told that it is that way? And as women, the same questions! How do you view your role within the relationship, life and the movement/work? Are you happy? Do you receive what you need? How does how you were brought up, impact on how you view the gender balance? What do you seek from life and your partner? Historically speaking, most religions are patriarchal and there is a good reason for that. Women need to be controlled/ to be owned so that men can ensure that progeny are their own and that patrilineal lines of inheritance are not disturbed. Biologically speaking, a woman is sure that a baby is hers, but prior to DNA testing, a man could never be sure that a child was his and the safest way to ensure that happened, was to control the woman, to control her sexuality, to ensure that she knew her place was in the house and not outside in the 'active' world. So religion was used as a measure to control women, to keep women in their place, whether as in Hinduism it is by little things like "women are dirty during menstruation and cannot enter temples/take part in prayer rituals" or the emphasis on a woman's 'virtue' in most of the Christian world. Another aspect that often comes up, is that women's energies are naturally passive and so by accepting that role, she is just fitting in with the natural order of things. However, as gnostics, we rail against nature in every other way, we fight entropy, lust, the forces pulling us down. If someone came up to you in the street and said "Nature has made you lunar, so that is your true destiny, why fight it?" you would probably laugh at them. Why then, are natures rules imposed on women? Why are we so eager to escape one and impose the other? I'd like to end by saying that I think it's important to have an open and honest dialogue about this, so your thoughts are much appreciated. If you are at a centre, you would have noticed that there are very few women within the courses as compared to men, and the sex distribution of active users using this forum bears that out and I do think that unconscious attitudes relating to women, their role and how they are treated has something to do with this! See you later and thanks for all the fish! |
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Join Date: 2005-01-26
Forum Posts: 771
Hi Ahona,
That's an interesting thing to bring up.
"As men, do you feel that the comments I have heard about a woman's role are accurate? "
- depends on who you ask.
"Is that how you lead your relationship? Are your partners happy with that role? "
- I live in America so there's a culture shock between us. There is a greater degree of equality here than alot of other places although there's also alot of people here that still believe otherwise.
"where does that belief come from?"
- North America is predominantly Catholic and Christian which are engineered belief systems of the "Holy" Roman Empire that demonize the sacred feminine.
The hypocisy is that although alot of people follow these religions, this same society passes legislation to ensure equality among both genders in it's secular society.
Here's something the rest of the world may or may not know. American men do whatever their women tell them to do... I think it's funny that men complain about their wives or girlfriends and act like they are in charge when talking to their buddies, but then when the whip comes down most tend to fall in line.
Because true gnosis embraces both genders and reveres women as the "Holy Grail," I am surprised there are not more women among the gnostics.
"See you later and thanks for all the fish"
- You're welcome? Don't eat too much or you'll get mercury poisoning.
Join Date: 2003-08-23
Forum Posts: 332
That last line was from 'The Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy'.
Thank you for your answers. I should probably make it clear that I live in Australia now and that the comments I have heard are not from Indian men, so it is not a cultural thing.
Join Date: 2008-02-18
Forum Posts: 10
Hey Ahona
I can't really say anything about womens role in the gnostic movement or the gnostic work as I am new to gnosticism but us for the life part I feel I need to say something because you have presented such a calm medium to talk about what is usually such a fiery subject amoung my female friends and I hope to learn from this also.
Firstly I believe that in an ideal situation of marriage/union two souls come together and form one, both the feminine and masculine forces work together and create exponential benefits for both people.
From what I understand in the past there was a tendency for the role of a woman to be "passive" in the spiritual work as you said and I believe that there exists many examples of women in these situations who still felt "equal and complimentary" and contentment and joy.
But as you say about all your friends, here in Australia, in my circle, the people who still acknowledge this tradition are few and far between which does make me wonder if it is just one of the many results of the number of spiritual bankrupts among us men.
I don't agree that woman are dirty but there are many examples of how ancient knowledge has been distorted and turned evil by the re-examination of tradition by our intellects but still enforced with the same amount of self righteousness. Which causes faults in allot of religions.
As for my own situation I am 21yo and walking the spiritual path to the best of my ability. I intend on reaching my optimum before I seek a woman to stand beside me and I intend on letting the details of this relationship flow from within and from the help of mentors but I cant yet comment on your questions about this.
I think it would be worth narrowing down what you are really afraid of and then doing that analysis of ego in the self discovery course. Thats been helping me allot.
In the end I think it's about trusting what you feel from within and if that is going out to do the "great work in the battlefield" then go for it I reckon.
Join Date: 2004-02-26
Forum Posts: 45
Personally, the gnostic women I have seen and learned from where incredibly strong, smart and brilliant. I saw nothing passive in them, only action and the most profound wish for growth in humanity.
I think that there are more men in centers compared to women because I believe this is a strong period of time for women - as they are learning to be extraordinarily independent with their God given abilities.
But I do think men and women need each other, and I think each has something the other one lacks.
Join Date: 2004-01-28
Forum Posts: 70
Hi Ahona! :-)
I have known of this issue for a while too. Mostly, I have heard comments from men, and I have seen unhappy gnostic wives. Using your words, the men (that I have heard commenting) do say that the role of the woman is just to support them, and stay home while they do so. In the meantime, the man is out there in the "battlefield", while the woman has her own battlefield yes, back home. If women are not happy, if they are having depression, and suffering because of being treated like this, they are told it's their problem, their own egos and they need to deal with them. I, personally, feel this is terrible.
I can summarize my position in just one sentence. Husband and wife are a team.
I believe the support must go both ways, not just one way as seems to be implied some times.
All the best!
Pau
Join Date: 2003-08-23
Forum Posts: 332
Thanks Ralph. Very true about each having something the other lacks!
Join Date: 2004-11-30
Forum Posts: 2635
Hi Ahona,
Thanks for sharing, that's very interesting what you've wrote!
I guess, you'll hear so many comments about "roles" of man and woman, which are obviously not always true in many cases.
I think that there are a certain differences between man and Woman on a level of energy, which are as different and important for normal functioning, as sexual differences on the physical level.
The state of those energies relates to natural magnetism(attractiveness) and to many other things.
"The Fight against nature" in this case perhaps is all about cultivating inner strength, work on egos, etc., more or less the same for both sexes, which strengthens own polarity.
With spiritual work, in relationship then everyone ideally simply does what he or She does the best, taking into consideration not "only energies" of course, but also individual skills, circumstances, etc., and as spiritual work progresses, so does harmony and work together, and if one loves more, then another one loves better!
Liked this poem by Victor Hugo mentioned in Samael Aun Weor's "Perfect Matrimony"
"Man and Woman"
by Victor Hugo
Man is the most elevated of creatures, Woman the most sublime of ideals.
God made for man a throne; for woman an altar.
The throne exalts, the altar sanctifies.
Man is the brain, Woman, the heart.
The brain creates light, the heart, Love. Light engenders, Love resurrects.
Because of reason Man is strong, because of tears Woman is invincible.
Reason is convincing, tears moving.
Man is capable of all heroism, Woman of all martyrdom.
Heroism ennobles, martyrdom sublimates.
Man has supremacy, Woman, preference.
Supremacy is strength, preference is the right.
Man is a genius, Woman, an angel.
Genius is immeasurable, the angel undefinable.
The aspiration of man is supreme glory,
The aspiration of woman is extreme virtue.
Glory creates all that is great; virtue, all that is divine.
Man is a code, Woman a gospel.
A code corrects, the gospel perfects.
Man thinks, Woman dreams.
To think is to have a worm in the brain,
to dream is to have a halo on the brow.
Man is an ocean, Woman a lake.
The ocean has the adorning pearl, the lake, dazzling poetry.
Man is the flying eagle, Woman, the singing nightingale.
To fly is to conquer space. To sing is to conquer the Soul.
Man is a temple, Woman a shrine.
Before the temple we discover ourselves, before the shrine we kneel.
In short, man is found where earth finishes, woman where heaven begins."
Join Date: 2003-08-23
Forum Posts: 332
Thank you Pau, good to speak with you again, even if via the forums! Spuddie says hi too!
I like your summary, that is how I see it and how David sees it too.
About women being told to just deal with it and get over their egos when it comes to problems, I have faced that and it very honestly almost led to David and I breaking up. It was when we really started listening to each other, communicating and when I was able to explain to him what I needed and how I felt, that we really made headway. I have no doubt that a large part of the problems were caused by my egos, but to attribute all the problems within relationships to egos and advocate the death as the only means of solving them, is in imo anyway, simplistic and rather convenient.
Join Date: 2003-08-23
Forum Posts: 332
Vadim, I LOVE that poem, it is one of my favourites!
I like what you said here "With spiritual work, in relationship then everyone ideally simply does what he or She does the best, taking into consideration not "only energies" of course, but also individual skills, circumstances, etc., and as spiritual work progresses, so does harmony and work together, and if one loves more, then another one loves better!......so true........
Join Date: 2003-08-23
Forum Posts: 332
Hi Mitch
Thank you for your feedback :)
I agree with what you have said, in that in an ideal marriage, two forces come together and create a whole, a unity. I love the symbol of yin and yang, which so perfectly symbolises this.
Good luck and much strength with your journey and with finding the perfect partner for yourself!
s.